For insight about the divisive political battle within the Republican party over the renomination of Donald Trump — or one of his rivals, such as Ron DeSantis — The Stream’s John Zmirak interviewed long time pro-life political activist (and Nefarious author) Steve Deace of BlazeTV.

John Zmirak: Steve, you raise some real criticisms of Trump which he, his movement, and America would benefit from him addressing. In some cases (see COVID) he must admit he made mistakes and will act differently in the future. However, the most zealous Trump supporters don’t react to these criticisms well. Some react with intense emotion, accuse critics of “betrayal,” or of secret loyalty to the “country-club Republican” machine. Some from that machine, such as William Barr, are actually supporting Trump’s outrageous indictment.

Before we address any of those criticisms, are there legitimate reasons why “Forever-Trump” voters are so thin-skinned and jumpy? Hasn’t Trump been more undermined, betrayed, and backstabbed by fellow Republicans than any politician in recent memory? How do we prove that we wish Trump well, and are offering genuinely constructive criticism in such an environment?

Steve Deace: Man, and I thought I asked long questions! First of all, I think DeSantis has a real path to win the nomination, because he has a real chance to win Iowa. And every Republican that has won the first-in-the-nation caucuses has either gone on to win the nomination or in the case of Huckabee, Santorum, and Cruz, finish as the runner-up.

But setting that aside, we are only having a contested primary at all because of the mistakes Trump made in 2020 after a very successful first three years of an administration (despite unprecedented undermining). None of which — lockdowns, poison pokes, funding the very Democrat ballot harvesting that stole the election, handing his presidency over to Fauci-Birx, etc., – Trump has owned up to.

Had he not made those mistakes or at least fewer of them, he’d still be president today. Had he owned up to them, especially Operation Warp Speed, this would be a lot less divisive primary today. But by continuing to double-down and gaslight on those topics, he compels his most ardent followers to make their support for him even more emotion-based, and DeSantis’ supporters to be even more emotionally ardent in their issue-based opposition. Since all the issues Trump is weakest on tend to be DeSantis’ strongest arguments.

Will We Have an Honest Election Ever Again?

One of your most cogent insights, I think, is that no winning presidential candidate in 60 years has campaigned based on rectifying the past, but instead by focusing on the future. You argue that Trump’s focus on the 2020 fraud is a strategy for failure. But if indeed there is a vast, nationwide mechanism for fudging votes, “correcting” the counts, harvesting ballots, and then prosecuting whistleblowers and critics, how can we ever have an honest election again? Are we in a hopeless Catch-22 here? Or do you see a way out? 

The only way out is if Trump shows he is finally capable of doing something he rarely has shown a capacity or willingness to do previously – pivot to a more positive tone in the general should he win the primary. However, Democrats won’t make that easy. Because these legal persecutions will continue on into next year, with one of two ultimate goals: convicting and incarcerating him, bog him down into so much divisiveness he never has the chance to pivot even if he wants to. Since the persecutions will be non-stop, his angry responses to them will continue as well. We also have to consider the possibility Trump will agree to a plea deal to stay out of prison. While he was a good president, and I wish he were president now, let’s also not pretend this isn’t also a man that has used divorces and bankruptcies to escape difficulty/accountability in his past.

Were Trump Advisors Skeptics About the 2020 Election Steal?

You’ve retweeted reports that the prosecutors targeting Trump are leaking depositions from Trump’s own advisors and attorneys. These snippets from evidence that the feds won’t even share with the defendant seem to assert something shocking. The claim is that nobody on Trump’s team, not even Trump, really believed that the election was stolen. Not before January 6, and not after.

Is it really possible to accept that? Trump saw the same evidence you and I have seen (and probably more). He had every motivation to believe that evidence, as we still do. What is going on here? If these depositions have been reported accurately, is this a case of Trump’s people being subjected to “struggle sessions” from the Andrew Weissman playbook, and realizing that it’s safer to perjure themselves in Biden’s favor than to tell the truth and face prosecution themselves?

I think we will get our answers during these proceedings, because the Democrat activists (the judge, prosecution, and jury) hosting the star chamber will demand definitive answers to this question. At the very least, folks like Trump senior advisor Jason Miller are now on video admitting this: Good people were being encouraged to literally risk prison for a mantra that at least some of the high-level people in the White House didn’t believe in. And frankly, I find that disgusting. Peoples’ lives are still being destroyed for patriotically demanding election integrity.

Who’s the Alpha Dog?

What do you expect to see at the upcoming (Trumpless) GOP presidential debate? What do you hope to see?

The pressure is on DeSantis whether Trump shows or not, and I think it’s more likely he shows than other people suggest. If Trump does show, DeSantis will instantly have to demonstrate he can take on the perceived “alpha.” If Trump doesn’t show, DeSantis is the perceived “alpha” whom the others will gang up on. Either situation will be difficult, but this is the hardest job in the world. So it should be hard to get it.

What percentage of the GOP establishment do you think would rather see a Biden win, than see Trump cement his control over the conservative movement? 

Frankly, at this point I am more concerned about RINOs like Elise Stefanik and Kevin McCarthy who have figured out if they publicly genuflect to Trump they can get away with betraying us on virtually every fundamental issue. Stefanik voted for the Equality Act – which is the Rainbow Jihad’s unholy grail – last time it came up. McCarthy has accomplished nothing substantive as speaker in seven months but a budget betrayal. But nobody talks about this, because now the RINOs have learned if they polish our idol, we will let them betray us out in the open. Skynet has adapted.

The Biblical Cyrus or … Samson?

In 2016, some of us who pushed back against the NeverTrumpers compared Trump to the biblical Cyrus. For my part, I compared him to the imperfect but extremely helpful emperor Constantine. What comparison seems to you aptest?

In 2016, I was NeverTrump. And for the next three years he went about winning me over. He made life in America better than it had been, and better than it is now. By the time we got to 2020, I was a vocal proponent of his re-election, despite his disastrous navigation of Covid. (Which we are still paying for in many ways.)

When I think of Biblical analogies for Trump, mine is Samson. A man of prodigious gifts and obvious demons. A man who would slay the Philistines in defense of God’s people, and then lie with them at the local brothel. However, what we remember most about Samson is his final victorious act. The pillaging of the temple of Dagon, with the fish demon plunged face down in the dirt.

To me, the overturning of that shibboleth of the damned known as Roe v. Wade is Trump’s version of that. It is his greatest achievement as president, and we can say today there are babies who have been given the gift of life in America that would’ve never been born had it not happened. Which is why, should he win this nomination, I will ballot harvest for Trump myself – despite the fact he annoys me plenty.

John Zmirak is a senior editor at The Stream and author or co-author of ten books, including The Politically Incorrect Guide to Immigration and The Politically Incorrect Guide to Catholicism. He is co-author with Jason Jones of “God, Guns, & the Government.”