Orthodox Jew and Messianic Jew “Face Off” About Jesus

SO BE IT! host Jeff Morgan has a conversation about Jesus as the Messiah with an Orthodox Jew in Israel. The two discuss messianic prophecy, Judaism’s oral Torah, and Israel’s ultimate assignment in this 20-minute video.

Editor’s Note: The transcript that follows was automatically generated and lightly edited, so please be aware there could be typos or other small errors. The Stream is working toward a transcription service that does fast, accurate, and reliable work; thank you in advance for your patience!

00:00:00:07 – 00:00:16:10
What you’ve got to understand is that Jews are alone, and that we do not want everybody to become Jews. I am very happy that there are billions and billions of people around the world who are Christians and Muslims. But I don’t want you trying to convert us.

00:00:16:12 – 00:00:19:18
When you hear the name Jesus. What happens? Like what do you what do you think about.

00:00:19:18 – 00:00:35:14
When I hear the name Jesus? I think about the history of Christianity persecuting us due to, years old to accept Jesus as the Messiah and I, I convulse. When I hear Jesus’s name.

00:00:35:14 – 00:00:43:05
I can tell, I can tell. Do you do you think that Jesus has anything to do with those persecutions?

00:00:43:08 – 00:00:45:02
No, I don’t.

00:00:45:04 – 00:01:01:18
That’s really that’s really, mature of you to say that, too. We’re actually Jewish believers in Jesus, you know, born Jewish. And I could I could see your blood boiling right now, but I get it. You know, both of us come from the same. Are your parents Jewish? Both of them, yes. And your grandparents and everything. Both sides.

00:01:01:18 – 00:01:05:29
Yeah. Same here. And your parents and the like. Your history was, religious?

00:01:06:01 – 00:01:07:03
Very much. Yeah.

00:01:07:05 – 00:01:11:11
How would you know that? Faith in Jesus is wrong?

00:01:11:13 – 00:01:13:08
Because there’s an HSA.

00:01:13:10 – 00:01:15:09
Really? Yeah. And what does it say?

00:01:15:09 – 00:01:39:29
The prophecies in, USS Carl and Daniel, that, the that the Messiah is going to do certain things. It’s going to gather Jews in from all four corners of the earth. He’s going to make Torah known throughout the earth, or at least throughout the Jewish people. And he’s going to build a third temple. And in Jesus’s time, the opposite of these things happens.

00:01:40:02 – 00:01:44:28
I mean, I know that there’s room in Orthodox Judaism for two messiahs. Have you heard of that, Ben Yosef a Ben-David.

00:01:44:29 – 00:01:54:23
I I’m familiar with that, yes. When you’re safe, the way I understand it is very much the, material redemption of the Jewish people and mischief man. David, is the spiritual redemption.

00:01:54:24 – 00:02:17:26
I, I just believe that the Yosef was still fulfilled in the same person in Yeshua, you know, came as the suffering one to to atone. And then the message of Messiah as Messiah Ben-David, who he is, this and this, that both will happen, like coming lowly and riding on a donkey and then, suffering and dying and bringing, initiating the Messianic age.

00:02:17:28 – 00:02:33:28
And then, like what you say we’re living in. And then on the second coming will rule and reign, you know, and so we actually do believe that even though there are certain prophecies that haven’t been fulfilled, that they will be also. So we’re we have a similarity. We just disagree on who it is. You know what I mean?

00:02:34:00 – 00:02:40:27
I suppose so have you have you studied, Daniel nine, the the timeline, the 70 weeks of years prophecy?

00:02:40:29 – 00:02:43:29
Yes. I would need to revise it, but I’ve I’ve learned it. Yes.

00:02:43:29 – 00:02:59:03
Okay. Wow. Because it’s a it’s a bit of a an interesting mathematical, equation that has the Messiah coming and establishing his messianic mission before 70, before the destruction of the Second Temple.

00:02:59:04 – 00:03:03:06
USA was a you would have to show me that in text. Which translation are you using?

00:03:03:08 – 00:03:04:16
Whatever translation.

00:03:04:18 – 00:03:10:02
Because if you’re not using that translation faithful to the tradition of the original Hebrew, then I cannot accept that.

00:03:10:05 – 00:03:14:28
And here begins the the 70 weeks prophecy.

00:03:15:00 – 00:03:16:16
I honestly haven’t done this in a while.

00:03:16:16 – 00:03:36:25
So it’s it. Yeah. It’s a I would, well, just check it out, because what this talks about is there’s a specific time period by which an anointed one comes, is cut off from his people. And isn’t atonement. And this has to happen before a certain period of time, before 70 A.D., before the Second Temple. If you believe that he hasn’t fulfilled certain prophecy I do to.

00:03:36:27 – 00:03:46:25
But that’s enough. Never says when that’s going to happen. That Messiah is going to come, and then all of it’s going to happen all at once. Have you ever read the New Testament before? No. Have you ever wondered what’s in it?

00:03:46:28 – 00:03:47:14
Not really.

00:03:47:15 – 00:03:48:23
Not really.

00:03:48:25 – 00:03:53:21
Because the Old Testament, as I suppose you would call it, as I call it, I call.

00:03:53:21 – 00:03:54:04
It the enough.

00:03:54:10 – 00:04:03:28
Is written with varying levels of, of, divine inspiration. I believe that the New Testament is just entirely written by man with no divine inspiration.

00:04:04:04 – 00:04:04:25
And how come?

00:04:05:02 – 00:04:14:06
Because the era of prophecy stopped earlier on in the Second Temple, and the entire thing, entire era of Christianity starts only late in the Second Temple. So there is no room for prophecy then.

00:04:14:09 – 00:04:18:14
And what? What leads you to believe that prophecy ended there?

00:04:18:16 – 00:04:23:02
Because our tradition says the, the tradition because Rabbi Yoda Levy says seven.

00:04:23:02 – 00:04:30:16
Because I say, what do you think is in the New Testament? I really don’t care. Yeah.

00:04:30:18 – 00:04:32:08
I’m sorry. I really don’t.

00:04:32:08 – 00:04:37:18
Care. Yeah. I appreciate your honesty. Are you familiar with the messianic prophecies?

00:04:37:21 – 00:04:39:08
Which ones? By whom?

00:04:39:10 – 00:04:48:10
Micah five about, Messiah coming out of, Bethlehem. Are you familiar with that one?

00:04:48:12 – 00:05:10:16
I have, I have learned, most of the prophets. It has been a while. It’s been a while since I’ve learned that, yeah. When you’re dealing with the whole. The whole realm of studying tonight. Yeah. You have to know that there is a tradition of a way to understand it. The way that all rabbis have understood this.

00:05:10:19 – 00:05:11:19
What do you mean, always?

00:05:11:21 – 00:05:28:10
Well, let’s let’s trace it. We. I assume you’re familiar with an ethics of the fathers. The very first. The very first passage. As Moses received the Torah from Sinai, he transmitted it to Joshua. I transmitted it to the elders who transmitted it’s the prophets. And from the prophets of the men. The Great Assembly that takes us to the early Second Temple.

00:05:28:10 – 00:05:30:11
Hold on. What is he transmitting?

00:05:30:13 – 00:05:45:14
The tradition. Because the Torah was not given just as a book, that at Sinai we receive not only the time of the written Torah, which was the text, but also the talks about power, which was the Torah that comes, the Torah that is a an oral transmission.

00:05:45:14 – 00:05:48:00
Yeah. I haven’t seen any evidence of that in Tanakh. Can you show me?

00:05:48:03 – 00:05:54:19
Let’s say there is a commandment entire of how to, how to slaughter an animal.

00:05:54:21 – 00:05:55:06
How to what?

00:05:55:07 – 00:06:14:26
How to slaughter an animal. The Torah says that, you shall slaughter the animal in the way that I command you. Nowhere else in the Torah does it actually say how he commands us is a sham. Expecting us to read his mind? No, because there is a tradition and an oral tradition passed down parallel to the teaching of the written Torah, which teaches us how to do it.

00:06:14:27 – 00:06:16:13
There’s nothing in the Senate that says.

00:06:16:13 – 00:06:18:16
Not the written to another, but the Oral Torah.

00:06:18:17 – 00:06:31:18
No, I’m saying word of mouth. Yeah, but you could say that. That it’s not there, that it doesn’t explain it. But that doesn’t mean that there’s a whole oral Torah that’s that’s authoritative, given to Moses on Mount Sinai. You can just say that it’s not there.

00:06:31:20 – 00:06:52:14
What I’m trying to say is that the that the traditional way to understand the Torah, the way that the rabbis have always understood it, the understanding which has prevailed. Yeah. Over time. And I admit there have been many, many offshoots. Yeah, there have been the Sadducees, there’s been the rights, more modern, factions of Judaism as well.

00:06:52:15 – 00:06:57:04
There’s also been, the followers of Yeshua. Yeah. As well.

00:06:57:10 – 00:06:57:24
That’s true.

00:06:57:26 – 00:06:58:24
Even during that time, the.

00:06:58:24 – 00:07:05:10
Way you had says how has always been understood is with a parallel oral tradition as well. That’s the tradition was written down.

00:07:05:10 – 00:07:06:24
And all of that was given to Moses.

00:07:06:24 – 00:07:22:27
You know, because, Roman rule was getting so harsh among among the Jews in Judea. I mean, right here. Yeah, yeah. And Jews were being was being scattered and they should. And the tradition, which has always been centralized, was in danger of being lost. And so before that Nazi decided that, they got be due to the prince.

00:07:22:27 – 00:07:27:08
Yeah, yeah. Decided that, in order to save his.

00:07:27:10 – 00:07:27:22
Sons.

00:07:27:22 – 00:07:48:04
Save the tradition from being severed. Yeah. It was best to what the to do what had not been done for 1000, 1500 years or so and so recalled the tradition. And even then he only recorded it in a fairly abstract way, only taking only writing down as much as had to be written down, because that was there was a danger of the there’s a, there’s a danger.

00:07:48:07 – 00:07:51:18
If you write too much down, then you forget everything that comes with it. You say all the details.

00:07:51:22 – 00:08:02:27
What I mentioned earlier was that I haven’t seen any evidence of that internal. You can say that. Well, it says something and we don’t know how to do it. Therefore, there must be a whole authoritative written oral Torah.

00:08:02:27 – 00:08:03:16
But that’s what I’m saying.

00:08:03:16 – 00:08:07:27
I don’t that that that’s it. I would say that’s a leap because because.

00:08:08:02 – 00:08:09:02
I think it’s biological.

00:08:09:03 – 00:08:32:25
No, but because, because we if you will look through that, then if you don’t see that happening, you don’t see it mentioned, you don’t see it passed down. You see actually the opposite. You see a wayward people group who worshiped idols and did what the surrounding nations were doing and were punished by God for for doing so. Even the high priests, the Oral Torah, as a legal authority isn’t presented until centuries after Jesus.

00:08:32:25 – 00:08:38:18
The aim of the Oral Torah was that it remained oral, and it was never meant to be written down. Why history?

00:08:38:18 – 00:08:39:27
Why was it written down?

00:08:40:04 – 00:09:04:06
Because when you write things down, there is a danger of forgetting what is being written down. If I were to, I know I I when I went to university before I made Aliyah and and in university lecture, you meant to, make notes during the lecture. But if you get the idea that. Oh, you mentioned nano elements, remember, is the notes and you’re missing the point entirely, or you’re meant to remember the lecture.

00:09:04:08 – 00:09:19:25
Yeah. I see the written Torah as a sort of notes for the main lecture, which is the Torah. If you don’t see it in the written Torah, then that’s like me coming out of the lecture, you reading my notes and thinking, oh, so I’ve learned everything there is to know in the course. And then you’ll take the exam and you’ll fail.

00:09:19:25 – 00:09:20:04
Yeah.

00:09:20:04 – 00:09:28:09
What do you think the exam is for us as Jews? Like what? What are we supposed to do while we’re here?

00:09:28:11 – 00:09:29:10
Well, well, that.

00:09:29:10 – 00:09:29:27
Question, it’s a.

00:09:29:27 – 00:09:31:29
Big not question. It’s a huge question. Let me can.

00:09:31:29 – 00:09:33:08
I can I go back a little bit then.

00:09:33:14 – 00:09:57:16
I maybe try and answer. Yeah. Go ahead. I believe that a Jew has a responsibility to observe the Torah, to improve, to improve him or herself. Okay. And also to improve the world. We do this by building a Jewish state in the land of Israel, in the spirit of the time that reveals God in all aspects of life.

00:09:57:18 – 00:10:14:07
Okay, I appreciate that. In the book of Isaiah talks about, how blessed are the feet of those that share the gospel, that share good news, that publish peace. The publisher nation. How is a Gentile person supposed to know the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

00:10:14:09 – 00:10:16:22
If we’re doing our job right, then.

00:10:16:25 – 00:10:18:17
Well, how would they? How would you do it right?

00:10:18:21 – 00:10:27:17
Any individual, I guess Gentile who meets a Jew will hopefully be inspired and encouraged by the conduct.

00:10:27:19 – 00:10:41:06
That’s pretty cool. So you said that if they if they met a Jew, I’ve seen throughout the history, throughout the last 2000 years, billions of Gentiles believing in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob because of Jesus the Jew.

00:10:41:08 – 00:10:48:23
When does this to Abraham? You’re going to become the father of a nation who are going to bring the Jewish people, are going to bring mankind back to awareness of me.

00:10:48:23 – 00:10:49:27
And I say to.

00:10:49:27 – 00:10:50:16
That is not.

00:10:50:16 – 00:10:51:13
To all nations. Yes.

00:10:51:13 – 00:11:09:25
Yeah. And, I mean, it’s in Genesis 12, to two verses two and three, right? The arc of human history and the Jew in the Torah view is to bring all of mankind back to an the minus of God for quite a while, more than a thousand years. You’ve got the, you know, the the Israelites, you become a nation.

00:11:09:27 – 00:11:22:02
But they are not really successful in influencing their Canaanite surroundings to then, like, I want to serve God. In fact, I would say the opposite happens my day. Influence and and happens many times. Look, just look in the book of judges and.

00:11:22:03 – 00:11:44:09
Well, that’s why that’s why I pushed back with regards to the unbroken oral Torah coming down. Because when you don’t see that, you see what you just said, idol worship. You see the Israelites becoming more like the surrounding nations instead of them bringing them in. Now, where there was a select few that came through.

00:11:44:11 – 00:11:45:14
What are you trying to say?

00:11:45:16 – 00:11:52:10
The Tanakh points to us as a people not even obeying the written law.

00:11:52:12 – 00:12:02:05
The whole point of the Oral Torah. Yeah, is that it is flexible and it allows it allows us to adapt to ever changing realities. But the principles remain the same.

00:12:02:09 – 00:12:12:28
As humanity evolves. The his law can adapt and be adjusted or amended or added to. Because, you know, obviously today things are really different than they were back then.

00:12:12:29 – 00:12:33:18
There is no way that the Torah can be added to or subtracted from that, that that is a grave violation of the Torah. It is certainly better for people to recognize some form of God which has some kind of morality with it, then to be stuck in paganism, murder, and. Yeah, and violence.

00:12:33:18 – 00:12:38:18
But but you would say that that it’s not true, though the Islam and Christianity.

00:12:38:20 – 00:13:04:18
What you got to understand is that Jews alone and that we do not want everybody to become Jews. I am very happy that there are billions and billions of people around the world who are Christians and Muslims. But I don’t want you trying to convert us the Jewish understanding, and I hope this doesn’t come across as arrogant, you can tell, is that we are meant to be kind of walking out in front, leading the world.

00:13:04:21 – 00:13:11:07
And how would they find out about God?

00:13:11:09 – 00:13:16:09
If we’re supposed to follow the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, including the Gentiles, how would they find out about him?

00:13:16:10 – 00:13:24:19
We believe in Jewish tradition that, a Gentile who follows the Seven Laws is guaranteed a position in the world to come.

00:13:24:21 – 00:13:58:00
But where would they find those? Because they’re not in the Tanakh. And if they’re in rabbinic literature, how would they actually get to rabbinic literature to find out what their role is on the earth? So this is where kind of we, we diverge. Diverge is because we believe that that Yeshua, who came in the first century, who fulfilled the prophecy that was supposed to be fulfilled by the Messiah Ben Joseph figure, he brought the knowledge of God and Torah to the entire world.

00:13:58:02 – 00:14:16:17
So he came. He said he specifically came for the Jewish people specifically. And then he sent his disciples out to the rest of the world to share the gospel, which which goes on the footsteps of of Isaiah 52 seven, which talks about, blessed are those the feet of those on the mountain who go out and share the good news, publish peace, and publish salvation.

00:14:16:17 – 00:14:29:24
And we believe that he came and did that on time. And instead of being two messiahs, that he’s one that comes twice. And so there’s not a messiah been Joseph, which isn’t recorded also in Tanakh, but he is Messiah Ben David.

00:14:29:27 – 00:14:32:08
There’s no filler. It doesn’t mean it isn’t doesn’t exist.

00:14:32:13 – 00:14:38:12
Yes, but I believe that that that Tanner points us to a specific individual.

00:14:38:14 – 00:14:39:15
Okay, you can believe that.

00:14:39:15 – 00:15:03:25
Yeah, I know, I know. Well, I’m going to come your way a little bit. I’ve been studying town mode a bit, and I have story on my phone. I read through it, I study it, I do, I look@chabad.org also. I look at the Rush’s commentaries and I try to make sense of it all and see things saying that you refuse or you would never, ever open the New Testament even to to look at it, to see what it actually says in there.

00:15:03:27 – 00:15:05:23
Do you think that that’s like open.

00:15:05:23 – 00:15:07:19
Or I being closed minded.

00:15:07:21 – 00:15:22:27
Because, because if you don’t know what’s in it, then you don’t know what it talks about and you don’t know how it relates at all to a faith that is that actually predates. I’ll just I’ll just say this for for your sake, predate the written oral Torah.

00:15:22:29 – 00:15:32:29
If you believe, as I do, that the written oral Torah is the Oral Torah, then the Oral Torah predates Christianity.

00:15:32:29 – 00:15:42:13
It has to, but I don’t see. I’ve never found evidence of it as a binding oral authority given to Moses on Sinai. I haven’t seen that. I’ve seen it in tradition.

00:15:42:13 – 00:15:43:02
So you need to look.

00:15:43:02 – 00:15:55:07
At it well, and you’d think that something so massive and so important would be visible, at least in Tanakh. And it’s not or surrounding Jewish literature at the time, or even in the New Testament, which is Jewish literature as well.

00:15:55:08 – 00:16:02:09
The Jewish people are called by God himself in the Torah, and I’m sure of that, which is a stubborn people.

00:16:02:11 – 00:16:04:17
That wasn’t a compliment, by the way.

00:16:04:20 – 00:16:05:28
I choose to take it as a compliment.

00:16:06:03 – 00:16:08:27
But it wasn’t, though. And it’s not. It’s not meant to be a Bible, believe me.

00:16:08:27 – 00:16:32:13
We read in the Torah a couple of weeks ago. I know some is a compliment. However, it is a fact. And as, two aspects, a negative aspect is that we are often too stubborn to listen to each other. However, yeah, a positive aspect of that is that we are stubborn enough to resist outside influence. A Jew who sticks to the tradition will be the ones who have recognizable Jewish descendants.

00:16:32:13 – 00:16:37:15
And what? What is it? What does it mean to stick to the Jewish? Are the people that that don’t? Do you stick to it?

00:16:37:17 – 00:16:38:23
I try my best.

00:16:38:26 – 00:16:49:16
Okay. And how does that work out for you? Like I’m just going to you can break up such good points in it and it creates questions in my head. Would you say that God is like the ultimate judge? Like completely and utterly just.

00:16:49:19 – 00:16:51:03
I think God has many attributes.

00:16:51:06 – 00:16:51:20
I do too.

00:16:51:20 – 00:16:53:27
One of them is justice and another is mercy.

00:16:54:00 – 00:17:14:11
The reason I bring this up is because I think a lot of Jewish people rely on their own righteousness, their own that they would call themselves, so that they claim if they follow the the traditions or the law of Moses, which is really actually this, they impossible to follow. That doesn’t take into consideration the fact that there is a lot.

00:17:14:11 – 00:17:22:15
And I admit that without a without a temple, there are a lot of commandments which are impossible to follow. However, that doesn’t mean we haven’t been doing our best trying to follow what we can.

00:17:22:17 – 00:17:29:28
Well, it could also mean that that that there was an era that came to an end and a new covenant came in.

00:17:30:00 – 00:17:30:22
No, I don’t think so.

00:17:30:26 – 00:17:43:12
Although I think there was a new covenant promised in Jeremiah. God will bring a new covenant with the house of Israel in the house of Judah, not like the Sinai covenant. So if, if, if that’s not the covenant, then what is?

00:17:43:12 – 00:17:47:01
Even though I may not know enough Torah to, to be able to refute everything.

00:17:47:04 – 00:18:03:07
I don’t know enough, dude, I can’t refute everything. There’s people that can tear me to shreds with regards to arguments, but it doesn’t mean they’re right. It just means they’re really good at arguing their point. What I say doesn’t mean that I’m right, and what you say doesn’t mean that you’re right. I think there is truth in the world, and it’s for us to find that out.

00:18:03:12 – 00:18:07:28
Especially as Jews. You see faith in Jesus is going out. I see faith in Jesus coming in.

00:18:07:28 – 00:18:12:12
I see faith in Jesus coming in for a Gentile. I see for a Jew is going up.

00:18:12:14 – 00:18:18:10
Yeah, but if he said he came specifically for the people of Israel, then, then, then it’s actually for us to the Jew.

00:18:18:10 – 00:18:25:05
First you can say what he wants is not for us, and you will never, ever be able to sell your message to the masses. So the Jewish man, first of.

00:18:25:05 – 00:18:40:20
All, it’s it’s happening. But second of all, it’s not my I can’t do that. I can’t change somebody’s heart. I can’t convert anybody. And if you think of it as a conversion, the only conversion I see is from, from from sinner to forgiven, not from a, a Jew to a non-Jew. I don’t see any conversion.

00:18:40:20 – 00:18:48:26
I don’t believe that a Jew who chooses to believe in Jesus, is no longer a Jew. But I do believe that they are no longer a practicing.

00:18:48:26 – 00:18:51:13
Jew because they’ve broken commandments.

00:18:51:15 – 00:18:57:24
Not because I broke the commandments. Because you’re going against some of the most fundamental Jewish beliefs.

00:18:57:24 – 00:18:59:16
Like what?

00:18:59:19 – 00:19:06:24
Believe. Believe in one God for that belief that God is incorporeal, I, I could never accept that God came down to us in the form of a man.

00:19:06:29 – 00:19:17:09
Really? You know, even though, you know, you seem to know it. Not pretty well, Jacob. I’ve seen God face to face in my life has been delivered. Abraham ate with a man who called him you, David.

00:19:17:12 – 00:19:19:06
Anything. All of that is meant to be taken literally.

00:19:19:06 – 00:19:23:13
Absolutely. I don’t absolutely. Yeah. Because it doesn’t want doesn’t fit.

00:19:23:15 – 00:19:26:25
I don’t know if you’re familiar with my mind. Is it certain principles of faith?

00:19:26:28 – 00:19:27:19
Yes.

00:19:27:21 – 00:19:38:00
Well, one of the third one is that God has no body and no physical form. And according to that one, this if you transgress, if you renounce any of those principles, then you are considered a heretic.

00:19:38:03 – 00:19:40:04
Yeah, I understand that. But what happened before then?

00:19:40:08 – 00:19:41:12
He didn’t. You didn’t make it up.

00:19:41:13 – 00:19:42:20
Do you think that the.

00:19:42:23 – 00:19:43:18
What was already being passed?

00:19:43:18 – 00:19:56:14
Not that that takes a lot of faith to believe that actually. But that’s okay. I mean, we we we have faith in things that we haven’t seen. But anyway, I don’t want to take too much more of your time because you’ve been gracious to me. I appreciate that.

00:19:56:16 – 00:20:02:16
The bottom line is I’m going to remain stubborn. Yeah. I don’t think that makes me close minded. I think that makes me safer.

00:20:02:19 – 00:20:08:18
Talking to you has been enlightening for me and I appreciate that. Thank you Isaac. Kind of. Again.