Last night’s vice-presidential debate may not matter much to Americans when they vote in November for the next resident of the White House, but the two candidates starkly separated themselves from each other on the issue of abortion — and on the understanding of life their views express. GOP nominee Mike Pence’s defense of the unborn mattered to pro-lifers and to many Christians.

Abortion entered the debate in its waning moments, as moderator Elaine Quijano asked Democrat Senator Tim Kaine and Republican governor Mike Pence “about a time when you struggled to balance your personal faith and a public policy position?” (A full transcript can be found here.)

Personal Faith and Abortion

According to Kaine, who is Roman Catholic, “I try to practice my religion in a very devout way and follow the teachings of my church in my own personal life. But I don’t believe in this nation, a First Amendment nation, where we don’t raise any religion over the other, and we allow people to worship as they please, that the doctrines of any one religion should be mandated for everyone.”

He said that “the hardest struggle in my faith life was the Catholic Church is against the death penalty and so am I. But I was governor of a state, and the state law said that there was a death penalty for crimes if the jury determined them to be heinous.”

Kaine, who misrepresented the Catholic Church’s teaching on the death penalty, said, “It was very, very difficult to allow executions to go forward, but in circumstances where I didn’t feel like there was a case for clemency, I told Virginia voters I would uphold the law, and I did.”

“My faith informs my life. I try and spend a little time on my knees every day. But it all for me begins with cherishing the dignity, the worth, the value of every human life.” Gov. Mike Pence

According to Pence, who was raised Catholic but is now Evangelical, “the sanctity of life proceeds out of the belief that — that ancient principle that — where God says before you were formed in the womb, I knew you, and so for my first time in public life, I sought to stand with great compassion for the sanctity of life.”

Indiana, he continued, “has also sought to make sure that we expand alternatives in health care counseling for women, non-abortion alternatives. I’m also very pleased at the fact we’re well on our way in Indiana to becoming the most pro-adoption state in America. I think if you’re going to be pro-life, you should — you should be pro-adoption.”

Pence v. Kaine

It was then that Pence attacked Clinton and Kaine on their abortion positions. Clinton has said she will repeal the Hyde Amendment, and supports partial-birth and late-term abortions. Kaine, who also supports late-term abortions, formally supports Hyde, which limits federal funding for abortions, but has said he will subordinate his beliefs to Clinton’s if they win in November.

“But what I can’t understand,” Pence said, “is with Hillary Clinton and now Senator Kaine at her side is to support a practice like partial-birth abortion. I mean, to hold to the view — and I know Senator Kaine, you hold pro-life views personally — but the very idea that a child that is almost born into the world could still have their life taken from them is just anathema to me.”

“I know you’ve historically opposed taxpayer funding of abortion,” Pence then told Kaine. “But Hillary Clinton wants to — wants to repeal the longstanding provision in the law where we said we wouldn’t use taxpayer dollars to fund abortion. So for me, my faith informs my life. I try and spend a little time on my knees every day. But it all for me begins with cherishing the dignity, the worth, the value of every human life.”

Kaine v. Pence (and Trump)

Kaine responded that while he and Clinton “really feel like you should live fully and with enthusiasm the commands of your faith,” they also believe “it is not the role of the public servant to mandate that for everybody else.”

“So let’s talk about abortion and choice,” he continued. “We support Roe v. Wade. We support the constitutional right of American women to consult their own conscience, their own supportive partner, their own minister, but then make their own decision about pregnancy. That’s something we trust American women to do that. And we don’t think that women should be punished, as Donald Trump said they should, for making the decision to have an abortion.”

Trump said in March that women who get abortions should be punished. He walked that statement back the next day after pro-life leaders hammered the comments. He supports abortion in the cases of rape, incest, and life of the mother, and has changed positions on several key abortion issues since launching his presidential bid last year. Last month he promised to make the Hyde Amendment permanent law, sign a ban on most late-term abortions and defund Planned Parenthood.

Kaine noted that Pence, who has long been praised by pro-life advocates for his desire to protect the unborn “wants to repeal Roe v. Wade. He said he wants to put it on the ash heap of history. And we have some young people in the audience who weren’t even born when Roe was decided. This is pretty important. Before Roe v. Wade, states could pass criminal laws to do just that, to punish women if they made the choice to terminate a pregnancy.”

“I think you should live your moral values,” concluded Kaine. “But the last thing, the very last thing that government should do is have laws that would punish women who make reproductive choices. And that is the fundamental difference between a Clinton-Kaine ticket and a Trump-Pence ticket that wants to punish women who make that choice.”

Pence responded that “Donald Trump and I would never support legislation that punished women who made the heartbreaking choice to end a pregnancy.” Pressed by Kaine on Trump’s comment, Pence said, “he’s not a polished politician like you and Hillary Clinton,” and declared, “I’m telling you what the policy of our administration would be.”

“[T]here is a choice,” he continued, “and it is a choice on life. I couldn’t be more proud to be standing with Donald Trump, who’s standing for the right to life.” He appreciated Kaine’s previous support for the Hyde Amendment, but pointed out that Clinton opposed it.

People need to understand, we can come together as a nation. We can create a culture of life. More and more young people today are embracing life because we know we are — we’re better for it. We can — like Mother Teresa said at that famous national prayer breakfast, bring the — let’s welcome the children into our world. There are so many families around the country who can’t have children. We could improve adoption so that families that can’t have children can adopt more readily those children from crisis pregnancies.

“Trust Women” Versus “Most Vulnerable” of Society

Kaine responded by turning the issue into women’s rights. “Governor, why don’t you trust women to make this choice for themselves? We can encourage people to support life. Of course we can. But why don’t you trust women? Why doesn’t Donald Trump trust women to make this choice for themselves?”

That’s what we ought to be doing in public life. Living our lives of faith or motivation with enthusiasm and excitement, convincing other, dialoguing with each other about important moral issues of the day, but on fundamental issues of morality, we should let women make their own decisions.

Pence replied: “Because a society can be judged by how it deals with its most vulnerable, the aged, the infirm, the disabled, and the unborn. I believe it with all my heart. And I couldn’t be more proud to be standing with a pro-life candidate in Donald Trump.”